Activity
Mon
Wed
Fri
Sun
Sep
Oct
Nov
Dec
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
What is this?
Less
More

Owned by Draven

Rock Singing Success

279 members • Free

#1 place for rock and metal singers. Free resources, community, and programs for your rock singing career. 🎤

🏛️ Coaching Academy

4.7k members • Free

"Mini Celebrity Status" Ads

3.6k members • Free

Lifestyle Founders Group™

13.6k members • Free

Fulltime Freedom

6.3k members • Free

InvestCEO with Kyle Henris

45.1k members • Free

ADHD Entrepreneurs

6.9k members • $19

Creator Party

5.6k members • Free

Profit Architecture

103 members • $39/month

Skoolers

162.4k members • Free

365 contributions to Rock Singing Success
👋 Introduce yourself right here!
This is the introductions thread. Say hi, tell us where you’re from and what you’re all about! In your introduction, answer these 3 questions: ➡️ What is your current music project and vision? ➡️ What moment made you want to pursue being a rock singer? ➡️ What's the main thing holding you back? We can’t wait to meet you!
👋 Introduce yourself right here!
1 like • 20h
@Sena İşgüzar Welcome! Feel free anytime to upload examples and get feedback. I'm happy to help however I can! Consistency in your singing come down to how you train. I imagine that blending genres means you also change your voice quite a bit. That makes me think of how Devin Townsend changes his voice throughout a song. See if you can find a middle ground for your sound color and accent when going through songs and training routines. Let that be your "default voice" that you work towards mastering. Building coordination and stability around that voice will allow you to expand into other colors more easily while always having a center to come back to. Start building solid foundations with the first 5 videos in the Free Training Vault. The warmup and belting videos will even give you the beginnings of a training routine for both coordination and strength. I don't want to assume because of your last name, but I've had Turkish students before. If you're used to Turkish styles, Yüksek Sadakat might be a good artist to hear the resonance and lift I talk about in those videos. Possibly Duman as well. Duman's singer is a bit more throaty, but only because he pushes his voice a bit. He's still relaxed and in cry vocal mode most of the time. The key is both lifting the voice up and out as well as relaxing the larynx. That is the cry/sob I talk about in the training vault, and cry vocal mode is what truly separates singing from speech.
0 likes • 20h
@Alex Pryor Welcome! Singing and playing at the same time is a challenge for sure. Separately, they're enough of a challenge already! I remember having to overly simplify one of them in order to do both together. That was hard! It doesn't just split your focus 50/50. It's more like they both go down to 25% at first. But it gets easier as each starts to feel more automatic. But man, I only played the first 3 frets of the guitar for a long time, just to be able to sing comfortably while playing. That's not to scare you. I self-learned both. I would have gotten lessons far sooner had I know how much easier it makes things! I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're avoiding the years of frustration I went through trying to figure it all out on my own. Go through the first 5 videos of the Free Training Vault, and let's get you building your singing voice. Please ask questions anytime. I'm happy to help. Without lifting your voice, like I describe in the first couple of videos, it's easy to get stuck in the throat, essentially trying to speak on pitch. And pitch is also one of the hardest things to learn, because it's mostly about ear-training. Let me know if you need help with that too. Most often, being a little off pitch is a matter of how you place your voice, rather than learning to hear the pitch. Playing guitar will improve your pitch awareness regardless.
What Are Your August Plans?
Who are you seeing in concert? What project are you currently working on? What do you want to see happen here? HELP ME LIVE VICARIOUSLY THROUGH YOU! HAHA! I'm just kidding...mostly. While August brings a lot of transitions for me, the main transition I'm excited about is moving from months of court stuff to finally having more time for music and community. I've had so many things I want to do here, but increasingly less time to do them until now. While I it won't all be ready in August, I will be starting the setup of my new course versions, memberships, and a new vocal program, using this community as the hub. With that also comes ramping up content like I've been wanting to do for months. But there's something particular about my ADHD brain that I want to keep in mind. Often, if I tell you all the details, my brain marks it as done already. So, I'm really only going to say that I'm excited about what's coming, and would love to hear more about... What would YOU like to see here? I'm also producing an alt. rock artist while planning out my own music for this Fall. Being in the hard rock genre with a southern gothic soul, I've been thinking about collaborations as I build. I have a connection with Lzzy Hale, but I'm nowhere near where I need to be yet to bring her on. Taylor Momsen and Dorothy Martin also are on my list for the future. But I'm looking smaller, like Jared Benjamin, Lø Spirit, or others on the rise in social media. Is there anyone you would recommend?
What Are Your August Plans?
0 likes • 18d
@Kenny Kendall Great songs. I wish it wasn't AI. A voice like that would be great.
The Night Rob Halford Showed Sebastian Bach Who Was Still The KIng
Some vocalists will use grit in a way that makes a fairly high note like an an A#4 still sound almost thunderous. What are they doing differently from other vocalists to creates those lower subharmonics to be so prominent? The best can sing an A#4 and make it sound as full as it were an A#3! Is there a specific supraglottal structure that they're engaging that some of the others aren't that leads to their lower and more prominent sounding subharmonics? Or is it simply a matter of their vocal cords creating a more robust clean note to start with? If it's the latter, is that because a more robust and chestier the clean note, the more capacity it has to be saturated with distortion? Here are Rob Halford and Sebastian Bach singing "Delivering The Goods." Sebastian Bach does a fine job at this, but the lower, more prominent sub harmonics in Halford's singing dwarf those of Sebastian Bach! Halford's technique almost gives the effect of what an "octave divider" does to an electric guitar. You'll especially notice that effect around 1:02 to 1:07 into the video when Rob Halford sings and then when Sebastian Bach immediately starts his lead vocal, you'll hear the bottom drop right out of the sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXzz8LkVEHs
2 likes • 19d
In the video, I actually hear it differently than what you're describing. Halford sounds very thin in his folds to me in that range.But that could just be because I have a hard time hearing through the technique in this video. HOWEVER, Halford does have a larger vocal tract and Tessitura, so his voice does naturally have lower harmonics in it. He's often classified as a lower tenor, where Bach is a lyric tenor. I don't like classifications when it comes to range (even the two of them have the same range), but I do think it's a quick way to describe the natural sound color because of the size of the vocal tract.
2 likes • 19d
@Kenny Kendall Sob, larynx dampening (not dumping or pulling it down), more /uh/ shading rather than just the /ah/ shading that good cry gives you. If you curb your vowels more, the larynx will dampen a bit, and vice versa. This add weight to the sound color. But too much can open the vowels up too much and sound like yelling. e.g. I think Bruce Dickinson's Tears Of The Dragon was a bit too open compared to what we're used to from him, giving him a shouty/yell sound in the choruses. Taking that idea too far can be heard in the choruses of Robert Lunte's cover of that song.
What Are The Main Things That Screamers Tend To Do That Damage Their Voices?
Some say: "Well, you don't really use your vocal cords when you scream; you use your false cords, so if you're hurting your true cords, you shouldn't even be using them." There's the legendary story of Corey Taylor who had perhaps the most ferocious scream in metal. It's even got it's own name: the Iowa Scream! Iowa was Slipknot's first album and many maintain that Corey's screams were never as brutal after the Iowa album because he had sustained damage to his true folds. Now think about that: Corey Taylor essentially invented his own technique for the Iowa scream and then he screws up on HIS OWN TECHNIQUE TO WHERE HIS VOICE IS NEVER THE SAME AGAIN! You'd think a guy would be a master of his very own technique. You'd LIKE to think so, wouldn't you? Then there's the case of M. Shadows who screwed his voice up terribly and there is some confusion as to whether he actually had surgery for it or not. There's also the case of Matt Heafy, who had a great sounding scream, did it well for quite a ferw years, but then blew out his voice. He went on to record an album of all clean singing because he was recuperating. Finally he came back with his "safe scream",. but Trivium fans maintain that the "safe scream" Matt Heafy used never sounded as good as his original scream which begs the question: Was his original scream fixable? With some minor tweaks, could he have kept doing his "original scream"? After all, it's hard to believe that his "original scream" was so dangerous that it had to be ENTIRELY CHANGED to make is SAFE! So, with that in mind (especially the Corey Taylor incident with his Iowa scream being something he could never truly do as well again) what do you think are the main things that screamers do that end up injuring their voices?
1 like • Jun 2
The #1 thing BY FAR that screamers and distorted singers do that leads to injury? PUSHING AND/OR FORCING VOCAL DISTORTION LEADS TO INJURY In other words, they're going too heavy in throttle and not learning the shapes for the sounds they want to make, and how to properly use breath support for distortion—squeezing the ribs like a toothpaste tube, rather than upping airflow like we do in speech. I often tell people that it's called "support" for a reason, not "force." Even in clean singing, a big problem I see people run into is pushing and forcing a shape/sound rather than using shaping and proper support of that shape. The other issues come from forcing something to happen in other ways. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the sounds the singers you mentioned were doing before injury could be recreated in a much more relaxed and safe way; or even conditioned to be a louder over time. That always reminds me of Alex Terrible's live chat during COVID, where someone asked him how to scream as low and extremely loud as he does. He laughed and said that it took him 12 years to get there. THE PSYCHOSOMATIC ISSUE From working with thousands in my courses and hundreds one-on-one, I've seen a psychosomatic issue arise that goes two ways: I. EXPECTED PAIN A previous illness or injury keeps them from being able to even approach something that feels similar to what caused the injury or what used to hurt to do. E.g. I had one student that had previously survived lymphatic cancer. He had a very real mental block keeping him from singing A4+ because it had hurt so much to do when he had cancer. Since it was in person, he could see what I was playing on my keyboard. So while chatting with him to distract him, I transposed my keyboard to look like I was playing G4 when the pitch actually being played was A#4. When I went back into the exercise he was effortlessly singing A#4 and B4 for quite a while. When I finally told him what pitches he was actually singing without effort, his mental block completely went away.
1 like • 19d
@Kenny Kendall I was specifically talking about screaming, rather than grit—using tension in the soft palate (more lifted) as his perceived stability and emotionality rather than than hyoid pull (in this case, tension from holding the larynx down) that was giving him unwanted lower harmonics in his acoustics. "Hyoid pull" can be felt when: 1. Muscles hold the larynx down 2. Arytenoid contract, thickening the vocal folds 3. Constriction or narrowing happens in the lower vocal tract, often from lengthening the space between the true and false folds (see #1) In the scream, I needed my student to relax his larynx and lift the voice more in order to get the fry scream on the pitches he was trying to get. He needed to feel that tension somewhere in order to give an emotional performance, so we tried his soft palate in order to place him better for the scream he wanted. He ended up feeling the pull into the soft palate as more straight up, causing tension where the soft and hard palates meet. In the end, cry vocal mode IS singing, which is both a lifted resonance (top-down whimper) and relaxing the larynx (sob). Distortion above the bridge often requires over-crying; hence the "pull" into the soft palate.That can feel like a yawn, relaxing the back of the tongue, opening up the back of the mouth, slightly lowering the larynx, more /aw/, or a number of other things. And the constriction needed can feel like narrowing, hyoid pull, tilting the larynx back, holding back air, a loud whisper, smoker's voice, an air "old man" grunt, etc, etc... Following the theme of this entire conversation, it's about subtlety or "touching" the constriction, not about just going for it.
Rev Your Voice Like An Engine: Question About Your Technique (New Concise Version)
Hi, it seems I misinterpreted your 4th of July post. I took it to mean that when you were writing about how after July you'd finally have control of your business, that you had temporarily lost the ability to write about singing here (until August). After all, I wrote a question 22 days ago and when you wrote your post, it had been six days or so since I asked it and I thought the non-response was atypical, but I figured you were just ultra-busy and would get around to it. Then I saw your July 4th post and thought: "Oh this makes sense. No wonder there has been no reply to my question. Draevn can't write about music here until August." Further confirming this idea, the board shut down more than I'd ever seen it shut down before to where there was literally nobody on the 7 day scoreboard at one point. So that confirmed my idea that you simply could not post about music here until August and (almost) nobody was posting because they knew you wouldn't be here to reply. So, imagine my surprise when today (day 22 since my original question abouut "rev") I saw Shijie get a reply only 3 days after posting a question. I guess I just worded my original "rev" question poorly and should have written it more tersely. Looking back on it n Now, it is pretty long. Ha ha! Sorry it was so long. I'm gonna try to condense it into the most concise form possible because I truly am interested in the "Rev Your Voice Like An Engine" technique and the specific problem I've always had whenever I tried it. I have tried this many, many times, especially when I was trying to get a Rob Zombie Dragula type distortion. In case you haven't heard that song here's a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqQuihD0hoI My thing with using this type of distortion is that while it's great for bringing out the bassy sub harmonics (almost making it sound like it's sung an octave lower except it still has the sharpness or edge of the octave it's in, despite having those subharmonics, but I could never get the full amount of distortion above about a D4.
1 like • Jul 24
As you go higher in pitch with distortion, the acoustic have to change. Lower down may feel small and forward in the mouth, but the higher you go, it needs to open up towards the back. It's the spectrum I showed before or compressed to uncompressed, front to back (red feeling more closed and blue feeling more open). But another way to think of it is a tear-drop shape on its side inside your head. Lower down, things tend to come to a point near the front of the mouth (or under the chin for some), and then open up to the large round space in the back up high. You'll max out at A#4 or B4 if too loud, because of the extra compression and lifted/expanded resonance that comes from that force. And if you lighten up as you go higher, relying instead on bracing the core for support of distortion, it will feel more like mixed voice, open in the back but lower and smaller than when you were loud. I recently described more about that support and other aspects of distortion here: https://www.skool.com/rocksingingsuccess/training-for-cry?p=4110db5d In the end, if you can't bridge the voice during the engine revs, focus instead on individual notes and melodies. Or perhaps work on pulling less compressed distortion you can already get up higher into lower and lower pitches, paying attention to how you might have to shift it to be both lighter and forward more in order to stay stable as you come down.
2 likes • Jul 25
@Kenny Kendall That's right around where it starts becoming more uncompressed and /ah/-ish from opening more in the vocal tract, changing from harsh to smoother, or hard palate to back of the mouth. If you want to keep a harsher sound, then the forward placement (lower pitches) moving to further back opening placement as you go up in pitch has to go to the crown rather than straight back—to the cockney "oi" in the crown, rather than the smoother distortion from /aw/ or /uh/ on top of the throat.
1-10 of 365
Draven Grey
6
1,314 points to level up
@draven-grey-6980
30+ years as a professional recording/performing musician, music career coach, rock and metal voice coach, producer, and recording engineer.

Active 14h ago
Joined Jan 6, 2024
INFJ
Denver, CO USA
Powered by